Dr. Karim H. Karim on IIS, Opinion and Debates, and Echo Chambers | Ignition Interview

nothing much ⋅ June 10, 2018

In this exclusive Ignition Interview with Dr. Karim H. Karim (former Co-Director of Institute of Ismaili Studies and current Director of the Carleton Centre for the Study of Islam), he candidly shared his insights on knowledge bubbles and their effect on the Ismaili community and institutions, including the IIS. Dr. Karim also discussed the vision and challenges behind the highly successful Second International Ismaili Studies Conference he hosted in March 2017.

Introduction

In September 2016, in Canada, on accepting the Adrienne Clarkson Prize for Global Citizenship, Mawlana Hazar Imam said:

"Media proliferation is another challenge: what it often means is media fragmentation. Many now live in their own media bubbles, resisting diverse views. New technologies can make communication seem easier, but they can also make pluralism much more difficult."

Indeed, as if on cue, a week later the Guardian newspaper, from London, reported on a new, October 2016 Pew Research study which found:

"Six out of every 10 millennials (61%) get their political news on Facebook ... making the 1.7 billion-user social behemoth ... the largest millennial marketplace for news and ideas in the world. But within Facebook's ecosystem exists a warren of walled gardens, intellectual biomes created by users whose interest in interacting with opposing political views -- and those who are them -- is nearly non-existent."

In other words, Facebook is a text-book example of Hazar Imam's "media bubble" with the very problems that he highlighted. Recognising this, the Guardian itself even characterised Facebook as an "echo chamber."

In a broader sense, we might think of "media bubbles" as "knowledge bubbles," where we limit and self-select -- out of fear, ideology, world view, or other motivators -- what knowledge we expose ourselves to. Given that our thoughts and views are shaped by our knowledge base and if we, even unconsciously, cocoon ourselves in comforting, knowledge bubbles, shutting out other views, perspectives, knowledge, ideas and insights, then knowledge bubbles will seriously impact our judgment and decisions we make in our personal, professional or communal lives.

In this Ignition Interview, we speak with former IIS Director (2009-2011), Dr. Karim H Karim, current Director of the Carleton Centre for the Study of Islam and Professor at Carleton University's School of Journalism and Communication. He hosted the highly successful Second International Ismaili Studies Conference at Carleton University in March 2017.

Interview

Sahil Badruddin: First, thank you very much for the interview.

Dr. Karim H Karim: Certainly.

Social media platforms degenerating into echo-chambers and media bubbles increase

Sahil: Recently, in Canada, Hazar Imam talked about media bubbles, and as Pew Research also indicates, social media platforms, are becoming echo chambers and media bubbles in their own right, where we only get -- or, rather, fed -- news that we want to hear and agree with. Bubbles where we're not getting other views but just reinforcing our pre-existing perspectives.

As someone who researches and teaches about the media professionally, what have you discovered on about this issue?

Karim K: I remember reading an article in the Nation magazine in the mid-1990s, when the internet was still very new and far sighted people at that time had expected that this would happen. In fact, it was already happening, people with particular interests were just going to certain websites, as we tend to do. And because it is we who are reaching out, who are doing the searches, the kind of searches we do, basically, just take us to the sites that we like, and we agree with. Very few us want to be challenged so that's what happens and the kinds of discussion groups and the kinds of websites and social media that people prefer, those are the places that people go [to]. For example, during the 2016 American election, this was very evident.

We saw it in Canada as well, where core groups basically like to stay with their own party and their own particular candidate, and no matter what other information comes to light they basically are part of that bubble and that's what they see and they distrust everything else. It's a very human tendency.

When a lot of people used to read newspapers, they, at least, were exposed to other ideas but even there they would tend to focus on the areas, or turn to a newspaper, with which they agreed. So now it is much narrower and because of the nature of the internet ...

When a lot of people used to read newspapers, they, at least, were exposed to other ideas but even there they would tend to focus on the areas, or turn to a newspaper, with which they agreed. So now it is much narrower and because of the nature of the internet where we can search for information, we just go to the sites that we agree with.

Sahil: With these media bubbles, and this happens in the news media themselves, we see some of them adopting a fear of Muslims and other elements, do you see these kind of media bubbles increasing?

Karim K: Well, there will be some media who are ... who have intensified their attacks on Islam, especially after 9/11. But my work, dating back to two decades preceding 9/11, showed that there was an antipathy, there was an antagonism towards Muslims and Islam, that is very long standing and it draws from hundreds of years of what, I guess, is now called Islamophobia but it's a tendency you can even find before the Crusades, during the Crusades, after the Crusades and during the Golden Period, in early media like silent film and so on. And so it's a continuum. I have written about this and I frequently talk about this. I guess certain current media have taken it to the extreme. Some who have journalists, who have become familiarized with the critique of this tendency have tried to understand Muslims better. But within the same newspaper or same program, you will find people who are very much in the habit of using stereotypes and others who are more careful about the use of their language and imagery.

Sahil: To step back just a bit, do you find that even the mainstream is its own bubble, like you mentioned in the US election?

Karim K: Well, yes, I guess I watched a lot of CNN and it was very clear with whom they sided with -- not that I support Trump or anything like that -- but the biases were very clear ... I didn't watch Fox, so I don't know what they were doing. Some media were obviously under a lot of stress because they disagreed with Trump and they were not too sure about Hillary Clinton.

We have this myth of journalistic objectivity in North America. In Europe, newspapers tend to be much more open about their biases, about their partisan biases, about their leanings towards one party or another.

We have this myth of journalistic objectivity in North America. In Europe, newspapers tend to be much more open about their biases, about their partisan biases, about their leanings towards one party or another. We in North America, feel that we can be objective. I tell my students that it's a human impossibility; we can be more critical, we can be more self-reflective and try to understand what our prejudices are, but we cannot eliminate 100% of them. So the media, on the one hand, try to be objective but they often don't recognize what the problems are with objectivity so they just repeat the same mistakes. In that sense, some of the mass media do tend to live in their own worlds. Of course, again, I don't want to generalize, as I said, in the same media, you will have people who think differently.

Sahil: How do you think we can, first, actually recognize that we have wrapped ourselves in a bubble, and then how do we break free from them?

One of the areas that I have been looking at for the last few years is religious literacy.... [H]ow do you know what you know about a religion? How did we acquire particular knowledge about something? Asking about the sources, about the logic, the rationale which led us to have this kind of knowledge.

Karim K: Try to be more self-reflective, to be more critical. And one of the areas that I have been looking at for the last few years is religious literacy. Various people at Harvard, including Ali Asani, Dianne Moore, and other people who have been working on the issue of religious literacy, ask how do you know what you know about a religion? How did we acquire particular knowledge about something? Asking about the sources, about the logic, the rationale which led us to have this kind of knowledge. Who did you learn it from? What sort of book did we read, what are the sources, whether it's electronic media, or film, or whatever? We should constantly be self-reflective and fair to people. So this is basically what I teach in class, asking my students to be more self-reflective about how they've come to certain judgements and certain ideas, and we all need to do that constantly.

Thinking independently and critically is essential to break free from knowledge bubbles and echo chambers

Sahil: Another consequence of these media bubbles are knowledge bubbles and we know these knowledge bubbles fragment our society, as Hazar Imam and the Pew Research Studies highlight.

As someone intimately involved with the knowledge society, insofar as knowledge can be expressed and manifest in the media, how can we and how do we inspire a commitment to truth and a proficiency in requisite intellectual skills to guide our search towards truth -- critical thinking, logic and objectivity -- as well as inspire the courage to be true to ourselves, to think independently, and break free from consensus bubbles if that is where the evidence takes us?

Karim K: Well, the idea of truth is a very important one. Of course, some people will say it's impossible to arrive at absolute truth, for a human being, yet it is something that we have to strive towards. And for Ismailis the word truth is very important. It appears in -- not many people know about this but perhaps you do -- that the Fatimids did not call themselves "the Fatimids."

Sahil: Of course. Yes.

Karim K: Basically, their name was Da‘waht ul-haqq, the call to truth. You see this also in Satpanth, the true path. So truth is very important. And this comes, as you said, from critical thinking, from constantly questioning the truths, the beliefs that you have, the knowledge that you have. Of course, it's a balance between faith and questions. But intellectual search is very important to Shia Islam. It's not only Hazar Imam who talks about it. It's the Bohra leaders, it's the Druze leaders. They all talk about the intellect which is a very important element of thought in Shia Islam as to the importance of the intellect in relationship with faith.

And so how do we arrive at truth? I think it is very important to have integrity. In the search for truth, one has to have integrity and ask oneself what is ethical, one is constantly questioning oneself about how one acquires knowledge and -- I am repeating myself but this is very important. So trying to understand what truth is, it's a lifelong struggle. It has various levels, intellectual truth, spiritual truth and so on.

It's a constant search. It's the Sirat al-mustaqim or Satpanth along which we walk and constantly ask ourselves, "Are we being truthful? Do we have integrity? Are we ethical?" Those are the ways that we can find the truth.

We may disagree with each other, in society, but ultimately if people have integrity, they move towards a common point. They may never actually arrive at it in their lifetimes. But then, of course, you believe in a life after death. So it's a constant search. It's the Sirat al-mustaqim or Satpanth along which we walk and constantly ask ourselves, "Are we being truthful? Do we have integrity? Are we ethical?" Those are the ways that we can find the truth. I don't capitalize the "t" in truth. Maybe there isn't a capital "t" in truth, but we certainly should strive for truth, either with a capital or lowercase "t".

Sahil: Do you believe that the courage to be true to ourselves, to think independently, and even the commitment to truth, can come from an inspiration from the past and our past Ismaili Muslim leaders and Imams?

Karim K: Yes, of course. And it's not only our own leaders. Many others have had remarkable insights into the human condition, into the truth. We can learn from so many sources, so many religions, so many philosophers. Of course, there may be some conflicting positions but that's where our intellect is important. To try and weigh what people have said in the past. Try to understand where we are today. Of course, many of the things that have been said in the past may not be relevant today, but it is the big truths which are important including knowledge of the self and how we engage with each other and try and basically do good.

Why is public debate and/or expressing opinions is rare in the Ismaili community today

Sahil: Can one truly have an intellectual faith, without opinion, without debate, in our intellectual landscape?

For example, in his recent book, Dr. Daryoush Mohammad Poor took a position that you didn't fully agree with but we, at Ismaili Ignition, wholeheartedly applaud and support his courage for taking a position and you debating it, perhaps as our past dais and philosophers used to. But I find this kind of public debate very rare in our community.

Why is it that we have few opinions expressed and so little debate within the Ismaili intelligentsia, amongst academics and well-read members of the Jamat?

Karim K: This is a very important question. Well, I still remember as a master's student, when I was in a panel, and I mentioned that pre-Fatimid philosophers disagreed with each other, that they used to debate with each other, and there was a certain scholar -- I guess that's a term that's used lightly sometimes -- [who] literally shouted at me from the audience saying that Ismaili scholars do not disagree with each other, which, of course, is ridiculous. We are human beings and have different perspectives, different understandings and it's very important to discuss and debate issues.

This is a very important question.... [Y]ou've seen it in the past, Muslims, Ismailis, various other people engage in debate and discussion and that's how human knowledge moves forward. It is through debate that we strive to learn about the truth.

Daryoush is a good friend and he was happy with my review ... he wrote me an email after he'd read my review article -- in fact I'd told him beforehand that I'd take a tough, but fair, approach -- and he said he liked the review article. This is the spirit which, hopefully, will take us forward. And you've seen it in the past, Muslims, Ismailis, various other people engage in debate and discussion and that's how human knowledge moves forward. It is through debate that we strive to learn about the truth.

In fact, one of the chapters in a book that recently I co-edited (Engaging the Other), written by a scholar who's a nun based in California, compares St. Aquinas and Al-Ghazali in how they developed ideas about debate, the rules for debate, and the importance of listening to the other. This is something that is very, very important for us within the Ismaili community, not only intellectuals but others as well, as long it is done out of the genuine desire to learn and to move knowledge forward.

We can't just dig in our heels and basically say it's my way or the highway, that only my position is true. You have to be able to listen to each other. I'm very willing to have my ideas critiqued. I discuss them with people and I engage in debate. In fact, that's what I tell my students - if they disagree with me, they can challenge me and some of them do.

It's very important that we learn the proper ways of debate, respectfully, for the purpose of moving forward. So, I certainly hope through my work that I'm encouraging other scholars to move towards that position of discussion and debate. I know some people have been put on the spot saying, "Oh that this person said this and now you're saying this. You have to be right or that person has to be right and one of you is wrong." Well, things are not as simple as that. Ideas are complex, the truth is complex, but we have to show integrity in the way we debate each other and discuss with each other.

Sahil: Absolutely, we completely agree with you. I really like that you're inspiring people and I believe you are. Why do you think debates are so rare both within the community, generally, and amongst our Ismaili scholars?

Karim K: I'm not so sure. I'm not sure exactly why it is but I think we're all, perhaps, brought up in an environment where we are taught to believe, or taught to think that there is only one truth and it is pure, and it is unsullied, and when someone authoritative speaks, whether it is an al-waez, or a knowledgeable person, or a professor, or whoever, that he or she is speaking the absolute truth. I might be exaggerating here but that's the kind of position that some people seem to think exists.

So unfortunately [within the community] there has been this lack of confidence that if we challenge and open up certain areas for discussion everything will breakdown ... Well this can be very dangerous because it allows a few people who are seen as authoritative to control the debate and the discourses in the community, and basically to have complete control.

I think this is the kind of knowledge bubble in which we have wrapped ourselves -- into the idea that there's only one unsullied, monolithic truth. Whereas ideas develop, and change, and evolve, and it is through debate and discussion that we do this. So unfortunately, over the last few decades, and perhaps over the last few centuries, there has been this lack of confidence that if we challenge and open up certain areas for discussion everything will breakdown. That we'll be opening ourselves to attack from outside when people publish critiques and ideas that are available to the public.

Well this can be very dangerous because it allows a few people who are seen as authoritative to control the debate and the discourses in the community, and basically to have complete control. And this can be dangerous. Of course, as long as people are ethical and have integrity, they can show their authority in a proper way. But if they try to control debate and they try to control discussion and understanding of certain issues, this can be very damaging to any community.

On the Institute of Ismaili Studies (IIS)

Sahil: We generally all assume we are immune from intellectual bubbles, but astute observers have identified many of them. Some are related to the articles of our faith and some are related to an individual's current understanding of the faith.

Other bubbles are related more to administrative best practices, and they affect the quality and validity of the decisions made. So, as a former Director of the Institute of Ismaili Studies, you were intimately involved not only with its administration, but also its knowledge related activities.

Could you comment on measures and best practices they found useful to help mitigate trapping themselves in their own knowledge bubbles?

Karim K: Well, the IIS is a very unique and distinct institution. It's not a university. It has a particular purpose. It's founded by the Imamat. It is run largely by Ismailis. It has particular objectives to further knowledge about Ismailis and the Ismaili faith. It's a valid goal; any institution can set goals in the way that it sees fit -- but you cannot compare it to a university where scholars are completely independent, can think freely about their ideas. And this is not to say that [university scholars are] necessarily right or that they will move towards the truth, but [university scholars] can critique and challenge and debate, although sometimes in a very nasty manner, which is not right. You have to have integrity. But the IIS has a very particular objective which is, basically, ensured by its structure and its leadership.

In my position as a Co-Director, I was responsible mainly as an administrator. It wasn't my choice, but that was what I was asked to do. Perhaps you know the organisation of the IIS, but one large part of it is the Department of Research and Publications. Unfortunately for me, I was not given the leadership of that department -- Farhad Daftary is the head of that and he always has been and so, as Co-Director, he was in charge of that. I was given primary leadership over the graduate programs, GPISH and STEP, and administrative aspects like communications, the library, human resources, finance, etc..

I was offered the position [of Co-Director of IIS] ... on a permanent basis, but I felt that I should see whether it was the right place for me, because as you know from my work, I engage in a critical manner with intellectual issues. So I asked for an initial contract of two years.

I was offered the position on a permanent basis, but I felt that I should see whether it was the right place for me, because as you know from my work, I engage in a critical manner with intellectual issues. So I asked for an initial contract of two years. I took a two-year sabbatical from Carleton University with the intention to let Mawlana Hazar Imam and the board know at the end of this period whether I would like to continue at the Institute or return to Carleton. ... The IIS is producing some really interesting stuff, but materials on the faith have a very particular template, for lack of a better term, that has to be placed on them. Also, the IIS tends to be largely focused on the historical, on the Fatimids and on the Alamut period largely, and most of my work is on contemporary issues. I also have a different orientation in my work and felt that I could really be much more productive outside the IIS. As the deadline approached, I wrote to Hazar Imam to seek his guidance. Hazar Imam was very gracious; he told me that there are many ways to serve. This is the relationship that I had with the IIS, as Co-Director, and we had a good parting of ways. I continue to assist the Institute and other Imamat and Jamati institutions such as the AKU, UCA and ITREB whenever they ask for my help.

The IIS, to reemphasise, is a very particular organisation. It has a very particular approach to its work. The trajectory of my intellectual orientation over the last few decades has shifted away from its specific approaches. This is rather sad for me in some ways because I've basically been thinking about the IIS ever since I received my undergraduate admission to pursue Islamic studies, but I have realised that I can do my work elsewhere as well.

Sahil: You differentiated universities from IIS, in that universities generally allow public debate and independent thinking.

So what objectives dictated by IIS' mandate permit it to drift from this norm of all academic institutions? And do these objectives preclude all open debate and independent thinking?

Karim K: It is not necessarily a matter of a stated objective, but a matter of practice within a scholarly institution that operates within the ambit of a religious community. Certain topics may be considered to be too sensitive, from the perspective of such an institution, to appear in a publicly distributed publication.

Sahil: Do you think IIS inadvertently creates their own bubbles that are projected on the community? For example, perhaps the confusion amongst the Jamat about the authority of what they produce?

Karim K: Well, as I said, the IIS has a particular approach. It favours particular kinds of studies and particular historical periods. Obviously, the way these things work is that, first of all, there's an overall objective set by the board. Then there is the objective of the intellectual leadership at the IIS, and the administrative leadership, and the other people who are part of the IIS or who are commissioned to write various books. All these lead to very specific kinds of production.

I'm not sure if anyone is forced to abide by the knowledge produced by the IIS. Of course, the IIS has a very unique place in the community, but often I hear that when there's a question from someone either ITREB or the council will ask the person to refer to the IIS, and the IIS will often say, "We don't have any jurisdiction over that." Like for example -- this may not be completely relevant -- but when I asked ITREB to see if they were willing to sell my book Islamic Peril: Media and Global Violence at its literature counters, and they said, "No, you have to ask the IIS if it is okay for us to sell it." I asked the IIS at that time, this is long before I was Director, and the IIS basically threw it back at me saying, "No, we don't control any ITREB's literature counter." So things go back and forth.

There is a lot of misunderstanding in the community as to what the IIS is ... [because it] has been established by the Imamat ... and is run as an Imamat institution, it is supposed to be in some minds the repository of all "proper"... knowledge about Ismailis and the repository of the "truth", but I don't think the IIS necessarily sees itself as that.

There is a lot of misunderstanding in the community as to what the IIS is. It's often seen as the ultimate authority on issues, which is something that it itself may not agree with. I don't think that in a lot of people's minds it's very clear, and this includes Jamati institutions, as to what the IIS is. And, it goes to your previous question as to why do we think in terms of, basically a monolithic approach to knowledge. Because the IIS has been established by the Imamat and is funded by the Imamat and is run as an Imamat institution, it is supposed to be in some minds the repository of all "proper" -- and I put this in quotes -- knowledge about Ismailis and the repository of the "truth", but I don't think the IIS necessarily sees itself as that.

Sahil: A few final questions about the IIS. What changes do you see happening in the IIS from your previous experience? Do you see changes taking place?

Karim K: I see most things continuing as they are. There may be small changes here and there but no major changes in policy.

Sahil: You mentioned IIS works on specific types of content and that they're focused, generally, on the civilizational approach, the historical approach.

Do you see changes happening? Maybe they're looking more at intellectual history rather than just translations, and then will they ever delve into things such as philosophy and theology? Are they considering it?

Karim K: I haven't seen anyone propose that so far. I think there are some people who are capable of it but have been very reluctant to engage in philosophy and theology, and so what tends to happen is just, as you stated, largely translations. And, at some point, maybe some commentary on previous texts from previous periods, but very little contemporary philosophical engagement with issues like ethics, about Imamat, about faith, etc.. I have not seen, necessarily, a movement away from the previous trajectory, unless I missed seeing it and, in any case, I left in 2011. I receive their books, but I haven't seen in those publications anything change remarkably.

Sahil: So, why is there that reluctance? Any idea? I know it's been seven years as you mentioned.

It goes back also to the objectives of the IIS and to the vetting process. Anything that is published, especially on matters of faith, is very closely scrutinized before it is released because it's seen as having a potential impact on how people will understand the Ismaili faith ... perhaps this discourages people from being bold in expressing themselves.

Karim K: Perhaps the Ismaili thinkers of previous times were much more confident, much more daring. They were exploring ideas and commenting on them. As I said, there are people who are perhaps capable, but don't seem to want to basically come out with that kind of work. Perhaps it will happen in the future. I think there are some young scholars who are doing some interesting work, exploring some interesting ideas, and if given the right encouragement, I think things may start moving along that path. But, it goes back also to the objectives of the IIS and to the vetting process. Anything that is published, especially on matters of faith, is very closely scrutinized before it is released because it's seen as having a potential impact on how people will understand the Ismaili faith and Ismaili practices and Ismaili beliefs. So perhaps this discourages people from being bold in expressing themselves.

Sahil: Does the Imam approve anything specifically?

Karim K: With respect to what?

Sahil: The IIS literature, any of the books that are being published, maybe the STEP books, for example?

Karim K: He provides overall guidance but he doesn't have the time, I don't think, to go through the publications in great detail. He discusses with the board and with the directors the overall approach to be taken. But, he basically meets [in] a board meeting once a year for about three hours, and there are so many other issues -- structural issues, administrative issues, financial issues -- that are discussed. And he leads so many other institutions under AKDN and elsewhere, as well as the meetings that he has with global leaders of course and so many other things that he does, so the close reading of materials is left to people assigned at the institute who are at the senior level to ensure that things are done properly in terms of the objectives.

Private, independent Ismaili digital media and websites are critically important today

Sahil: You've done academic research on the Ismaili digital media presence, particularly private Ismaili websites I believe.

Could you share some of your findings and also your insights as to what role, if any, you feel they could or should play in addressing these knowledge bubbles within the community?

Karim K: Well the nature of digital media is to decentralise information and to contribute to the construction of knowledge, and that is happening. Because of what we discussed earlier regarding the concentration of knowledge in the institutions, what is happening now is not only the production of knowledge through various articles that people may post, but the discussions taking place about them, people discussing various ideas, challenging each other. Sometimes it may take wrong turns, but that's the nature of discussion and debate. And people who live in Western societies are used to democratic debates and discussions which take place -- it's not a perfect situation. And, so the digital media have provided venues for these kinds of discussions among the intelligentsia, but also among people who may not see themselves as intelligentsia, young students or those who just want to learn, members of Jamat, etc., who basically want to address things that are not being addressed.

The nature of digital media is to decentralise information and to contribute to the construction of knowledge ... [they provide] venues for these kinds of discussions among the intelligentsia, but also among ... young students or those who just want to learn, members of Jamat, etc., who basically want to address things that are not being addressed.

For example, there is one [web]site I've been looking at recently, Khoja Wiki, which is trying to look at the history of the members of the Jamat and Ithna Asheri Khojas and Sunni Khojas and what their past was, and how they travelled from India, what sort of life they had in India and still continue to have, and those who travelled to East Africa, and what they did there, settling in various cities, towns, and then the movement to Western countries and elsewhere. This is something that is not being addressed in the scholarly work of institutions, and people want to do that. They want to know about themselves. And, we have largely ignored knowledge about ourselves. Who we are as a people, our history, our ethnicity, our culture, the splits that occurred between the Ithna Asheris and the Ismaili Khojas. Young people know very little about this, but their ancestors lived through the experiences of families splitting along sectarian lines; what sort of a legacy has that left? This is barely touched upon. Generally, the South Asian Ismaili communities have been almost disregarded in the recent intellectual work of the institutions, and so this is part of what the digital media have enabled.

Sharing information, posting information, debates, and so on. As I said, it's not all necessarily productive, but overall, I think we have to understand that this is what happens when there are debates.

Sahil: That's good to hear. Do you see this Ismaili digital presence as a good evolution?

Karim K: Overall? Yes.

Current challenges and vision for the future

Sahil: In keeping with our larger vision for Ismaili Ignition to tap the intelligentsia and the Jamat for their insights, let me now ask you what you feel are the top challenges -- whether administrative, social, societal, intellectual, economic or any other areas, that the community faces? What are the top challenges?

Karim K: In engaging with contemporary society, as a whole, the important thing is ethics. We often talk about ethics. We talk about integrity. The community is quite remarkable despite certain weaknesses that there may be regarding certain aspects of administration or whatever, but various other communities see [us] as a very successful community. There is a very high level of organization but, of course, we always want things to improve. On the one hand, we talk about ethics. On the other hand, there is very little training of institutional leaders regarding ethics, and how one deals with ethical challenges in trying to reach the goals of the particular institution of which one is a member. Because there is constantly the temptation to cut corners and to perhaps not be so ethical to reach a goal, one may think that the ends justify the means, and I'm not saying this happens a lot but I think we need to have that discussion.

Our Imam constantly talks about ethics ... [b]ut, even though we may have at the back of our mind what ethics mean, when it comes to doing certain things, certain actions, certain activities, trying to reach a certain deadline or a goal, sometimes ethics fall by the wayside in the dealings of leaders with the community, Jamat or individual members.

Our Imam constantly talks about ethics ... But, even though we may have at the back of our mind what ethics mean, when it comes to doing certain things, certain actions, certain activities, trying to reach a certain deadline or a goal, sometimes ethics fall by the wayside in the dealings of leaders with the community, Jamat or individual members.

Sahil: Hazar Imam often asks the Jamat and the leadership to think about their vision for the community in 25 years, and we normally talk about these in general terms.

However, could you name a specific objective that you would think we can accomplish as part of your 25 year vision?

Karim K: I'll have to come back to that!

Sahil: So we like to end on lighter notes and the Jamat, including myself, are always eager for uplifting, heart-warming Imamat anecdotes or stories from those who have worked closely with the Imam. We'd be grateful if you could share one from your times.

Karim K: Hmm. Of course, it was a great privilege to work at the IIS, and to have several meetings with Hazar Imam. What never ceases to surprise me is the attention to detail with which he would read our reports and question us about some very intricate details. It was very important that those reports were written very carefully, and for us to be constantly on our toes because Hazar Imam takes things very, very seriously.

It was a great privilege to work at the IIS, and to have several meetings with Hazar Imam. What never ceases to surprise me is the attention to detail with which he would read our reports and question us about some very intricate details. It was very important that those reports were written very carefully ... because Hazar Imam takes things very, very seriously.

I looked at all the minutes even before I was Director and there were two themes that appeared constantly as matters of emphasis: what was happening to expand the STEP training program, and the development of the STEP curriculum, because they had both been long-standing challenges for the IIS.

I have also had the privilege to meet, Hazar Imam in other contexts in my work with the Graduate School of Media and Communication at AKU in Nairobi, and I was the only Ismaili in that advisory group. The way in which he expressed the issues and the way he understood them, the depth at which he would express his insights was just amazing, not only for me, but for everyone -- these were very senior professors and administrators of journalism and communication departments, as well as professional journalists. What particularly astonished us was not only the depth, but the breadth of his vision and his knowledge across so many areas that he deals with.

And there also is [his] very deep graciousness. So at this particular meeting about the AKU school -- I don't know if you recall this, but he had injured his arm, this was, I think, before, I joined the institute, so before 2009, probably 2007-2008; it was around the Golden Jubilee. He had a cast or a sling but he insisted on shaking everyone's hand and it was his right arm which had been injured, so he used his left hand, but insisted on doing that, going around the table and greeting everyone personally. We have a remarkable Imam who is very gracious, very loving, but also very knowledgeable and very diligent in the way he runs various institutions.

It was around the Golden Jubilee. [Hazar Imam] had a cast or a sling but he insisted on shaking everyone's hand and it was his right arm which had been injured, so he used his left hand, but insisted on doing that, going around the table and greeting everyone personally. We have a remarkable Imam who is very gracious, very loving ...

Let me go back to your question about the 25 years.

Long-term thinking is a hallmark of the Imamat, because it itself is a very, very long-term institution ... 1,400 years and counting. Basically, the idea here is not only to think about the community, but about humanity, even though we are a small community. And, so we face challenges because there have been, through our history, many divisions, and the community gets smaller and then we get more people and it grows, and it diminishes again, and this has been happening throughout history. At certain times in our history we have become more insular; for example, after the split with the Ithna Asheri Khojas -- and this may be relevant to our earlier discussions -- there emerged a tendency not to question things, not to debate, not to critique. Perhaps this continuing tendency may have come about because of that experience or reinforced after that. And, perhaps that's why we tend to be very circumspect about the way we discuss various issues.

With the impact of the Internet in combination with the growing freedoms in Western societies and around the world, especially that young people have, people are naturally inclined to ask questions. Some people seem to stop asking questions when they get to a certain age. But, now even older people, like founders of Khoja Wiki and others, are raising issues. They may be doing this not necessarily in an aggressive manner, but they are expanding the way we learn about the world and about ourselves.

We need to learn that the terrain is changing, that we need to be more open to debate, to introspection ... not to feel threatened when questions arise because we are a strong community. We [have] a very strong Imamat, and so I don't think we need to be unduly afraid. The Imam himself, in my experience, likes strong ideas, well founded ideas.

As a community and as a community of institutions, we need to learn that the terrain is changing, that we need to be more open to debate, to introspection, learning about ourselves, not to feel threatened when questions arise because we are a strong community. We [have] a very strong Imamat, and so I don't think we need to be unduly afraid. The Imam himself, in my experience, likes strong ideas, well founded ideas. There was this one incident at a meeting, when I felt that he was not receiving proper information about something, and I raised the point -- I was really reluctant because it was a very stressful situation -- but when I raised that issue, as a counterpoint to the person who was presenting those ideas, and Hazar Imam was pleased that there was some discussion and debate in his presence. So I think this is very important for us, that over the next 25 years, in an on-going way, if our institutions are going to stand the test of time, we need to be open to greater use of the intellect, which is an integral part of the Ismaili heritage.

Sahil: Thank you so much for a very informative and insightful interview.

Karim K: You're welcome.

Interview Supplement

As an aside to the main theme of the interview, we felt we would be remiss if we failed to ask Dr. Karim about his well-regarded and highly successful Second International Ismaili Studies Conference which he organized in March 2017 at Carleton University in Ottawa. It was likely the largest contemporary and international gathering of scholars and academics in the field of Ismaili Studies and had an exceptional community reception.

Sahil: Congratulations on your unique and successful conference, and I'm sure the community hopes more will be held in the near future.

What was your objective? What did you hope to achieve with it specifically and in general?

Karim K: The first Ismaili Studies Conference (ISC) was held at the University of Chicago in 2014 and I was passed the baton to organize the second. ISC is a progressive endeavour which provides opportunities for academic establishments and independent scholars to present research and also serve as venues for respectful, academic discussion and debate where assumptions and preconceptions can be questioned. It upholds contemporary standards of scholarship and the requirement for participation is adherence to scholarly norms rather than religious or ideological leanings.

While the conference organizers are university based, they consider it important to engage with Ismaili institutions, however ISC is not aligned with any communal, political, or ideological organization and does not seek permission from them to hold the events. ISC does not orient itself for or against any individual or institution and recognizes that academic freedom and critical inquiry are integral to scholarship whose fundamental purpose is, of course, the advancement of knowledge. Therefore, presenters may put forward research findings that are critical of specific entities.

[The Ismaili Studies Conference] is conceptualized as a civil society endeavour that operates from the bottom up, rather than being controlled from above, with the conferences moving from university to university in a decentralized, non-hierarchical manner.

ISC is conceptualized as a civil society endeavour that operates from the bottom up, rather than being controlled from above, with the conferences moving from university to university in a decentralized, non-hierarchical manner. By emphasising inclusive participation, rather than exclusionary ownership, ISC allows for a range of viewpoints, some of which may even be diametrically opposed to each other. The conferences' programs include plenary discussions where all participants have the opportunity to contribute to shape the future of Ismaili Studies.

While community-based research institutions conduct and publish important research, they tend to be limited in the areas they study and the kinds of critical inquiry they are unable to accommodate at their public or scholarly events. In contrast, by partnering with like-minded entities and endeavours globally, ISC conferences offer a unique multidisciplinary, interdisciplinary, global platform for presenting research on a broad range of topics related to Ismaili Studies.

[M]embers of the community institutions attending the conferences noted that the opportunities for discussion and debate they found were unavailable to them in their own organizations and, thus, in keeping with the spirit of the Ismaili movement's traditional respect for the human intellect (aql) ...

Indeed, members of the community institutions attending the conferences noted that the opportunities for discussion and debate they found were unavailable to them in their own organizations and, thus, in keeping with the spirit of the Ismaili movement's traditional respect for the human intellect (aql), the knowledge shared at ISCs benefits both academia and communal organizations.

Sahil: What advice could you offer to others contemplating hosting similar events?

Karim K: The success of the Second International Ismaili Studies Conference was due to a number of factors, especially a long planning period that ensured logistics and organizing were addressed strategically and systematically. Given that ISC is a new endeavour, its status and profile were vital and developed with a view to establishing a long-term institution. To minimise misunderstandings, a concept document that laid out the primary principles for the conferences was shared with potential partners and funders and the vision was shared with the institutions and communities at large.

There were several elements fundamental to ISC's success: conceptualization, partnerships, fundraising, securing the venue and facilities, the organizing team, recruitment of volunteers, publicity, assessment of submissions, program scheduling, event preparation, and logistics. Attention to detail was vital, particularly transportation, accommodation and catering. Above all, communication with stake holders, continuous vigilance and adapting to unforeseen circumstances were of utmost importance.

If ISC is to remain an autonomous civil society organization ... then it is crucial that it is not controlled by any person, community, or institution. This decentralization should occur not only in the ISC's leadership but also with respect to the partnerships and funding sources.

If ISC is to remain an autonomous civil society organization, whose primary aim is to foster research, dialogue and debate on Ismaili Studies, then it is crucial that it is not controlled by any person, community, or institution. This decentralization should occur not only in the ISC's leadership but also with respect to the partnerships and funding sources. The persons organizing the future conferences should ensure that the structure does not become overly reliant on any particular entity. This is a challenge because it is difficult to raise funds for and organize a conference; one has to be disciplined in resisting offers from any one source to take up these responsibilities as it can come with control over who is permitted to speak and the kinds of topics to be discussed. The organizers of the first ISC were faced with this very problem and realized that they needed to seek alternative sources of support.

The continuing success of ISC depends on how well it protects the right of bona fide researchers to present their work, no matter how much others may disagree with it. Apart from ensuring the presence of established scholars, it is important to encourage the participation of students, and other well-informed individuals, in the conferences. They are often innovative and have fresh insights. Any academic organization that is building for the long-term cannot afford to exclude the young researchers.

There is also very good work being conducted on various aspects of Ismaili Studies by independent researchers who are not formally attached to academic institutions. Several of them are at the forefront of the study of neglected areas such Satpanth, Khoja Studies, and contemporary developments. Very important work is also being done by independent scholars in developing digital databases relating to scholarly resources. Their inclusion in the conferences enables a dialogue between academics and community-based researchers that enriches the field as a whole.

Very important work is also being done ... in developing digital databases relating to scholarly resources. Their inclusion in the conferences enables a dialogue ... that enriches the field as a whole. Both the ISC events to date have ended with a general discussion session among all participants about the role and future of the conference.

Both the ISC events to date have ended with a general discussion session among all participants about the role and future of the conference. This is indicative of the importance that the organizers have placed on giving the opportunity to a broad base of interested individuals to have a say on the future of Ismaili Studies. These characteristics were vital in obtaining a competitive conference grant from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada.

The first ISC was held in the 2014-15 academic year and the second in 2016-17. It is hoped that these gatherings will occur every two years at various universities. The possibility of the conferences continuing is dependent on enterprising and conscientious professors stepping forward to organize events at various universities. It was important for the first two events to have a broad range of topics. Whereas this may continue in forthcoming events, some gatherings may be designed to focus on a particular area.

About Dr. Karim H Karim

Karim H. Karim, Ph.D., is a Professor at Carleton University's School of Journalism and Communication, of which he was previously the Director (2006-2009). He is currently the Director of the Carleton Centre for the Study of Islam. Karim also served as a Director of the Institute of Ismaili Studies in London, UK (2009-2011) and was a Visiting Scholar at Harvard University in 2004. Before joining academia, he worked as Senior Researcher and as Senior Policy Analyst in the Department of Canadian Heritage. He has also been Chairperson of the Federal Digitization Task Force's Working Group on the Accessibility to Digitized Collections and an elected Chairperson of Canadian Heritage's Committee on Equal Access and Participation.

Prior to his work in the Government of Canada, he reported on Canada for Compass New Features (Luxembourg) and for Inter Press Service (Rome). He holds degrees in Islamic Studies and Communication Studies from Columbia and McGill Universities. Professor Karim serves on the boards of the Canadian Journal of Communication and Global Media Journal -- Canadian Edition. He participated in the scholarly discussions leading to the founding of the Global Centre for Pluralism. Karim also led the preparation of a concept note for the development of a major in Communication and Media at the University of Central Asia and served as a member of the Advisory Committee of the Aga Khan University's Graduate School of Media and Communications, Nairobi, Kenya. He is an Associate of Migration and Diaspora Studies, the Centre for European Studies, and the Institute for Comparative Studies in Literature, Art and Culture at Carleton University.

About The Interviewer

As host of the series Candid Insights, Sahil Badruddin conducts interviews of influencers, leaders, and intellectuals for their deeper insights and wisdom with thought provoking questions that hit at the heart of a matter. Some of his interview guests, among others, include Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Karen Armstrong, Hasan Minhaj, and Eboo Patel.

He is also the co-founder of Ismaili Ignition and host of its Ignition Interviews series and the Managing Editor at Ismaili Digest. Sahil's RoundUp Video Series assembles the most interesting and credible spirituality and religion-related content for general audiences. He is a graduate of The University of Texas at Austin with degrees in Chemical Engineering, Religious Studies, and History.

Ignition Questions Asked

What Role does Opinion & Debate play in an 'Intellectual Faith' Today? (link)

Notes to the Audience: The Ismaili Ignition Interview Protocol

With conventional interviews, interviewees are usually not advised in advance what they will be asked (except, perhaps, for some broad outlines that may have been agreed upon ahead of time), and therefore they often have some anxiety, concerned if they will become victims of "gotcha journalism," caught off guard and "on the record." Further, given the questions are surprises, interviewees must think on their feet and, therefore, may miss or forget important points they may later wish they could have made.

However, Ismaili Ignition's objectives for our conversations are very different from conventional interviews. Our purpose with these conversations is to drill deeper and probe our guests for their insights on issues, new ideas and perspectives and, therefore, we need to set proper context in which to frame the questions. Their length and depth also reflect the amount of thought we put into each to try and select those topics and issues we feel are of particular interest to the Jamat today and which will continue to be in the decades ahead.

Consequently, we developed our own interview protocol for our conversations. In particular, our objectives are, firstly, to draw out our guests' best and most thoughtful insights and, secondly, ensure they are at complete ease in a safe and stress-free platform. To these ends, we:

Provide our guests with the broad topics and themes we wish to discuss in addition to our questions (of course, spontaneous follow ups are asked as warranted). By providing these in advance, our guests are able to reflect over their responses and hopefully, thereby, provide you, the audience, with more valuable insights.
Invite our guests to offer their feedback on the topics and questions, and even afford them the opportunity to advise us of any questions they would prefer rephrased or, if they do not at feel comfortable answering, even removed altogether, so as to help have a more substantive, relaxed conversation.
Finally, and again in the interests of our guests’ peace of mind, prior to publication, we provide our guests with the audio and/or transcript to review and approve to ensure there are no remarks which perhaps, on reflection, they’d prefer to re-phrase, or even remove altogether, so our visitors can have confidence what they read or hear is what our guests intended to say.

During the interviews we may highlight what we feel might be unrecognized challenges or issues and offer our opinions, ideas or alternative perspectives (in a sense, just thought experiments) for our guests to comment on, however, we do not insist on our opinions, although some may find our opinions helpful. Nevertheless, we hope the new and alternative perspectives will spark others to build upon them in an effort to find innovative answers which we hope they will share with the community.

About Ignition Interviews

Ismaili Ignition interviews attempt to draw from our guests their best ideas, insights and perspectives on the full spectrum of issues and topics related the community's faith and administration. Our guests are independent thinkers, well-read members of the Jamat -- irrespective of their station in life or station in the community institutions -- that have vision, insight, well-reasoned opinions and the courage to offer them candidly. Individuals with creative, innovative, practical, solutions, or who are able to pinpoint and identify areas for improvement, or who are unafraid to challenge conventional wisdom, or who are able to identify important trends and have a genuine desire to help the Jamat move forward.

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